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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 2, 2005 20:25:25 GMT -5
Hi peakindarien! That is so great that you got to meet Singer! I actually got to have lunch once with Val Plumwood, do you know about her? She was very kind to me, and she is one of the bravest people I have ever met.
Hi librarian! I used to live in Evanston, for college, and I could tell you all kinds of great places to get sushi there - and Thai food, all kinds. There was even a restaurant specializing in dim sum, called Dim Sum and Then Some. I wrote a paper on Descartes and John Searles' Chinese Room for a class once and I called it Cogito Dim Sum, like cogito ergo sum... I know, not that funny. The professor had a chuckle, I guess. Now I'm a professor in Georgia. I love my students, they're the coolest people, and I love it when they write funny papers!
I'm reading my Kant... Kant's a c... I can't understand Kant... and the way he uses the term "duty", depending on how clearly someone says that word, you can mistake it for something else!
Sorry I got off track from the vegetarian question... Yes, I definitely agree it is better to be a vegetarian. It reduces suffering, brings about a greater good for animals as well as humans who live in areas with limited resources, reduces disease - there are excellent utilitarian and a Kantian duty-based arguments for being a vegetarian, as well as ecofeminist arguments that are totally convincing.
Oh, I just saw Librarian's response on the cowhide and kitten fur - it sounds like the uniform issue is a big factor. If one can lose one's job, and there are good reasons for keeping that job (whether personal/monetary or for the sake of the good you do in your job) then that might trump the negative factors involved in the leather. I know that even as a professor, I am put in situations where I have to put up with things I think are unjust for the sake of the job or the department I am part of or the university as a whole...
for example, the local police often come into our classes looking for students who are either wanted for questioning, have a warrant out for their arrest, or just to try and frighten them into talking about a friend. This is the opposite of a private school I used to teach at, where police were never given a student's class schedule information to go and find them like that - and if they did come looking for a student, we were entitled as faculty to kick them out of the room, especially if they had a gun on them. I am actually bothered by the lack of privacy the students have here, I would like to be able to kick the police out of my classes, but I've been told that if I fight it I'll cause too much trouble for my department. Since I care about my other faculty members as well as my students, I sort of put up with it and subvert it at the same time ("Oh, hello officer, you wanted Stephen? He's just not here today, I'm not sure where he is..." then the police officer leaves and I smile at Stephen, who is sitting in the second row all along, that kind of thing.)
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Post by letters2dorian on Mar 2, 2005 21:04:00 GMT -5
this reminded me of something my friend told me they were discussing in her psych class: these boys (around 17 - 18 years old...) were shamelessly (and proudly) talking about how, when they get high, they run over squirrels or throw rocks at them and stuff!!! when i heard this, i was speechless!! i know these boys (not friends with them or anything!) and to think that a) they are getting high and b) are killing innocent critters just made me furious!! as some of you might know, i am zoophobic (deathly afraid of animals) but i do love animals and i try to avoid meat or fur or leather as much as i can (i still eat meat, but i really don't want to -- my family is European and meat is always the main part of the meal -- and trust me, i tried changing it up a bit, and they were just confused!!) also, those same boys said today that disabled and mentally retarded people should be put in cages!! you possibly cannot imagine how furious i was when i heard this!! i couldn't believe it when my friend said that the teacher didn't respond to this or anything (just a simple "be quiet") ... anyway, my point for this was to show that young kids here at home seem to disrespect nature and other living beings just as much (or almost as much) as the fur traders overseas, and that something should be done about this, especially in the schools, which is where children learn absolutely everything didn't mean to put you down or anything, or get off topic, but i needed to add that here.. ps: welcome sugarmagnolia!!
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 21:04:47 GMT -5
SugarMagnolia, Oh I know... I was just giving PiD a hard time. Actually for someone with absolutely no convictions, I should stay out of this. Just kidding.
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 2, 2005 22:27:27 GMT -5
Hi! I totally agree with you, letters2dorian, that violence against animals should never be tolerated or glossed over that way, especially by a teacher! The key is to get help early in dealing with it, and work with the parents. My sister teaches first grade, and she has a specific protocol to follow as soon as she knows a student has engaged in violent behavior toward animals. The gloating teenagers example is so sad, if only there had been some assistance given earlier. Now those boys are old enough that they are statistically more likely to have trouble with relationships, with the police, with their own kids later... it really bothers me when kids are given the wrong message by their parents too. I know some faculty members I work with who have done some things with their pets that I would consider abuse: for example, leaving their dog outdoors in all weather, because they imagine that the dog might do something to their six year old son (a son who is actually really active and physically assertive, and I think more likely to hurt the dog, the other way around...) I think it's a cycle, the parents came from a family where dogs got left outside, they think the world of their child, and pass on the idea that the dog is something to be feared, left outside, and disregarded when convenient. It's sad. The point raised about humans who are mentally disabled is also a serious issue; and it is actually one of the points that people raise as a criticism of Peter Singer (that his desire to avoid speciesm leaves him putting humans of varying degrees of salience at a lesser moral value.) I'm not very comfortable with that - teaching at public universities has given me some experience with a range of different abilities and disabilities. I have had students in advanced cerebral palsy who were essentially left almost unable to communicate by speaking; this semester I have a student who had a brain tumor removed from the base of his brain when he was a child, and he has trouble processing and communicating information, but when he writes he is a great writer; these people all have moral worth, moral value, and deserve fair treatment and access to opportunities. It sounds to me like when the teacher said "be quiet", everyone missed out on a teachable moment where she could have at least challenged their assumptions. I think this is one of the things that education can improve upon - the more we focus on terror warnings and violence in schools, the more schooling becomes a matter of making students sit down and be quiet, and that is exactly the opposite of what education should be. There should have been a discussion and a chance for those students to be disabused of their bad assumptions. I'm noticing I must seem like such a downer in this thread, listing all these sad issues. I'm so sorry about that! On a happier note, I picked up groceries tonight and I made sure it was all vegetarian - vegetables for salad, squash, strawberries, blueberries. And some chocolate! Here's another question to check in on - where do you all stand on gelatin, marshmallows, and other jello related products?
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Post by Pollyanna on Mar 3, 2005 6:05:19 GMT -5
SugarMagnolia! I've so enjoyed reading your posts today! Interesting stuff and real food for thought PeakinDarien it's definitely better to do something than nothing and good on you for having the courage of your convictions. I think if each of us tries to always follow our heart and live according to what we believe (even though that may sometimes be different) then we will all be doing ok and making the world a better place (I just had to use the pink dancing elephant.... cos...I just had too )
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Post by Nana on Mar 3, 2005 7:16:54 GMT -5
Hey Pollyanna, I love the pink dancing elephant! Welcome SugarMagnolia, if you were my philosophy teacher in college I wouldn't have hated it so much. I really enjoyed reading your postings. I think that vegetarians shouldn't eat those, but that's easy for me to say b/c I really don't like sugar and I've always thought gelatin to be disgustin. Not eating meat itself has been a lot harder for me. In Brazil meat is cheap, compared to Europe and America, so everybody eats lots of meat. We have in Rio these barbecue style restaurants where they serve all different cust of meat non-stop right on your plate until you're about to explode. I use to eat and eat and eat... Well, last time I had salads and grilled cheese only, it was weird. My friends jaws dropped, none of them could believe I really wasn't gonna eat meat. It felt good to stick to my decision. Now changing topic a bit... Look y'all I found me!!!Good me: Wicked me: Righton me:
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 3, 2005 15:34:35 GMT -5
Hi Peakindarien, what a great topic you got going here! Thank you Pollyanna and Nanabanana! I am so happy when people think I'm interesting. I try really hard to be fun and engaging in class! (Those dancing bananas are the sweetest. I wish there was one on some kind of motorbike!) Oh PiD, the Val Plumwood connection - she's actually supposed to be the person that the movie Crocodile Dundee was inspired by, she survived a major crocodile attack and lived to tell about it (and is a major environmentalist and animal rights person!) She's a nice person too which is rare in the academic world! Here's a link...I have to learn how to the smaller links! tinyurl.com/3ztdk
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Post by letters2dorian on Mar 3, 2005 15:58:11 GMT -5
quick diversion from the vegetarianism chat.... Look y'all I found me!!!Good me: Wicked me: Righton me: lol!!! very cute!! here's the code for it: [url=_______]click here![/url] just change the _____ to the website, and change the "click here!" to whatever ok, back to the vegetarianism! like Pancake said a few posts ago, i'm also planning on becoming a vegetarian after the whole lemonade "fast," so any of you vegetarians have any sites that could help me prepare for this change??
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 3, 2005 16:05:12 GMT -5
Thank you so much for the link code! This is one of my favorite books on being veggie, Famous Vegetarians and Their Favorite Recipes: Lives and Lore from Buddha to the Beatles by Rynn Berry. It's very inspiring, and while I'm not sure about the research they did, it is cool to think that there has been a long history of vegetarianism! Amazon link here
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Post by letters2dorian on Mar 3, 2005 16:27:56 GMT -5
thank you sugarmagnlia!! i will definitely check it out as soon as i can!!
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Post by Librarian on Mar 3, 2005 19:26:35 GMT -5
I am so sorry that I was so glib about this yesterday. I was in a silly mood. I want you all to know that I realize that my stinky coworker is not smelly because he's vegan. There are oh so many other factors... My brother has been a vegetarian for about 15 years now and vegan off an on for three years. He lives in LA where restaurants cater to that; it is hard when he comes home to Alabama (the vegan part). When he's vegan consistently for a period of time, he looks and feels great. (And smells good too ) I greatly admire anyone that has convictions and can stick to them. My diet consists mainly of "buckwheat" and hops. My evening apertif tonight is Grolsch. SugarMagnolia, thanks for all the great info. I am going to send my brother some of these links. As an aside, I studied Kant for an entire semester - it was my least favorite class. Such dense material. But what a sense of accomplishment coming out the other side of that Hell.
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 3, 2005 22:47:29 GMT -5
Hi Librarian! I hope your bro likes the links! Kant is one of most difficult people to read, I swear it's true. And he was a man with a unique look: Kant siteHi Peakindarien! I love that about your mom watching Crocodile Dundee on the day you were born, that is so sweet! I don't think there was a special movie my mother saw the day I was born. I remember my family watched The Paper Chase the night before I started kindergarten, though; that really made me nervous about school - I thought John Houseman might show up during the fingerpainting! I met Val Plumwood during a philosophy conference, she was giving a paper, and we went out to lunch before she flew back out of the states. It was a vegetarian meal too
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