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Post by texasgal on Mar 2, 2005 6:29:41 GMT -5
Hey Peak!
Interesting topic, and I'm glad you've brought it up.
I mostly eat vegetarian most of the time. If I eat mammals I'll only eat Kosher meat. But I haven't eaten any kind of mammals (kosher or not) for a few years. I occasionally eat fish & fowl, but that is more & more seldom. I'm moving toward vegetarianism completely.
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Post by Pancake on Mar 2, 2005 11:55:44 GMT -5
Who eats kittens?? O that is so disgusting!
I was a vegetarian for a while but I couldnt take it anymore. It's hard to stay low carb and not eat meat at the same time! Althought I'm not a big meat eater myself. Especially poultry yucko! But i'm starting that new lemondae diet and you cant eat anything so maybe i'll turn over a new leaf completely!
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Post by IMAQT on Mar 2, 2005 12:04:34 GMT -5
But i'm starting that new lemondae diet and you cant eat anything so maybe i'll turn over a new leaf completely! I have a feeling you'll be turnin' over something if all you can have is lemonade. As for taking out the bouncy thing. There is a "modify" button at the top right of your post. Click on that and you can change whatever.
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Post by bunnypanda on Mar 2, 2005 12:05:15 GMT -5
"Modify" can be used when you want to add something to your posts too Btw when people put 3 "?"s they automatically turn into " " because the code for this smiley is 3 "?"s. You can put 2 "?"s without them turning into anything so you can type something like "?? ?? ??" when you want to put many "?"s.
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 13:00:55 GMT -5
PiD, Where do you stand on wearing leather? My brother is vegan for health reasons mostly. He originally stopped eating meat (before going vegan) for moral reasons. He couldn't eat a critter -- same as you. But I always found it strange that he contintued to wear leather. My brother is very healthy and is careful to have a balanced diet. It's a lot of work for him though. But because he is so healthy with it, I am fully supportive. (But he still wears leather... ) I know a vegan at work who is so unhealthy. His skin has a grayish pallor And he has a strange odor. I have shared many meals at restaurants with him and he makes a big deal about being vegan. The wait staff and all surrounding tables are aware. One evening ... well my husband still refers to it as the "vegan incident". Whenever we have a birthday celebration at work he makes a big deal about being the one to get the cake and he brings in a vegan something I have always contended that he is vegan for attention -- whereas my brother is just trying to be healthy. You can readily see the difference. I guess the lesson is that we should all eat a balanced diet.
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Post by Remi on Mar 2, 2005 13:20:07 GMT -5
I've always wondered what kind of shoes a vegetarian wears (leather? rubber? hemp?). I hope to gain some valuable insight from Peak and others on this issue. I don't wish to argue or debate about it... I'm really, honestly curious.
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Post by Nana on Mar 2, 2005 14:46:32 GMT -5
Going veg was my major new year's resolution.
Marconi went along with the idea, which was really helpful since he's the one doing all the cooking lately. Actually it's been easier for him, b/c I've always been the meat eater while he was the salad guy.
I'm not gonna tell you it's been easy, but I stopped for the reason Peak spoke about: if I don't eat cats and dogs, I shouldn't eat cow, pigs, lambs etc.
By the end of this month, I'm having a full check up, with blood work and everything, in order to find out if I'm lacking any nutrients.
Lib, I was thinking about the leather issue some time ago... I'm considering not buying leather from now on, but I do have some good leather shoes and jackets from before I was vegetarian, and I'm not going to throw them out simply because to me it would be like throwing money out. I'll wear them until they're no good anymore.
Btw, I think you can wear like rubber/plastic/canvas/straw shoes.
Modified to add:
Can we share recipes here too?
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 2, 2005 15:29:46 GMT -5
Hi everybody! I think the interesting thing about the vegetarian question is the wide range of opinions, even within the veggie community - the leather shoes and clothing example illustrates this really well. Remi, I think some vegetarians might go for fabric shoes, especially canvas shoes like Converse All-Stars and Keds. (The sticky issue there is that some of these fabric shoes are made in sweat shop and child labor conditions, so the people wearing them are having to choose what they see as the lesser of two evils. A lot of people who would agree on going veggie would still debate the human rights - animal rights tension in those situations.) Some vegetarians will be in favor of vinyl shoes (kind of like rain boots, or flip flops) but there's a similar tension here because the polyvinylchloride industry is known for releasing a variety of carcinogenic (cancer-causing) byproducts from the manufacturing process, which leaves the environmentalist-vegetarian making a difficult choice. (It even gets worse if you're a vegetarian-environmentalist who wants to support human rights housing programs like Habitat for Humanity, because the Habitat organization has an ongoing relationship with the polyvinylchloride people for vinyl siding for the houses they build...) There are also fabric formal shoes, as in satin (some etiquette rules actually say that at a black tie party, women are supposed to wear fabric shoes instead of leather because leather shoes, even pumps, code as "casual"). I also noticed over the past year a lot of designers like Marc Jacobs have been doing a lot of dress shoes in tweed fabrics. Peakindarien, have you read Peter Singer's work? I would be really curious about how Australian philosophers react to his writing; a lot of philosophers in the US see him as the central figure on animal rights since the 1970's. Some like to argue in favor of animal rights from the perspective that animals have "salience" and "sentience" (the ability to know and the ability to feel pleasure and pain - most people who have pets can accept that about their own pets.) There are a lot of big name philosophers writing about this, from the deep ecology perspective, and from ecofeminist perspectives (like Holmes Ralston, Andrew Light, Martha Nussbaum, and Karen Warren.) I also think it might be interesting to approach the issue in terms of the American diet and the tendency to over-eat and over-use animal products (for example, the mediterrean diet uses much less meat, more vegetables and fruits.) John Robbins' book Diet for a New America is one of the classics, and in a way it foreshadowed the fast food culture, lawsuits, and new films like SuperSize Me. One other possible diet is the CRON "calorie restriction with optimal nutrition" diet, which is based on the theory that taking in fewer calories each day (but making them high-nutrition calories, as in whole grains, legumes, nuts, vegetables, and fruits; with almost no refined sugar or flour) will actually increase one's life span. There's quite a few websites out on this, based on the research done by Roy Walford on mice. Friends of mine with pet snakes claim that this diet is a lot like the recommended diet schedule for their snakes; that they should only be fed a very small "catch" once every so many days/weeks. www.pbs.org/stealingtime/living/calories.htmwww.calorierestriction.org/www.optimal.org/peter/cron.htmwww.ualberta.ca/~gifford/cr.htmThis diet de-emphasizes animal products (too high calorie, too high in saturated fats and cholesterol) but it does allow animal products to get just enough protein. It also does leave open the possibility of being veggie, with proteins from beans balanced with grains (beans/brown rice/soy protein). I'm working up my discipline to get more involved in that kind of a program, but it is a challenge for me. The people I know who have done CR for years claim that their health and their moods have improved dramatically since they made the change. I was vegetarian and vegan the whole time I was in college, but I fell out of it in graduate school. I have to admit I like meat, and it is hard to resist in a barbeque situation. When vegetarian alternatives are around, I usually do make the effort. (There are some "high nutrition" recipes on the pages linked above.)
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 16:09:05 GMT -5
Thanks SugarMagnolia! And welcome.
You've provided some great information. Are you familiar with the Okinawan program as well? It along with Dr. Dean Ornish recommends high intakes of fish -- that it is the only animal product you should eat. My problem is that I don't like fish - I've tried many types. So I take an essential oil (inlcuding fish oil) supplement instead.
I studied Peter Singer in college. I found his ideas a bit extreme - I guess I am comfortable being a speciest. I remember finding his contention that all species are equal and one should not use an equal as a means to an end -- an interesting argument. Great to use in debates.
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Post by Remi on Mar 2, 2005 16:21:40 GMT -5
Welcome to the board SugarMagnolia!! Thank you (and Naner) for the response to my question about the shoes. Lots of sticky issues there. It's always interesting to get other's opinions on that very topic. I agree that we over-eat and over-use animal products!! I spent a couple years overseas, and it was a shock to come back to the States and try to choke down an American-sized meal at a restaurant (I've since learned to overcome that shock, sadly). I'm almost convinced that there's a conspiracy to make us all overeat and unhealthy. ;D I hear ya! (I'm sorry for going off topic at bit. )
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 2, 2005 18:43:07 GMT -5
Hi again! Thanks! I think that the Okinawan Program really has a lot going for it... www.okinawaprogram.com/You're right, it can be hard to get used to the fishy tastes... I do like fish tacos, and sushi. Every so often, salmon baked or lightly seared is good. They also say that with most fish in the US, even the farm raised kinds, it's a good idea to limit the amount of fish you have to 2-3 servings a week because of the high levels of mercury. Sushi is also hard to get fresh in the area I live in - say Librarian, are you in Alabama? I can imagine it must be very similar there... speaking of ethics, did you ever get to meet an ethics professor in Alabama named James Rachels? He was a very nice guy, he did a lot of work on combining the means-end arguments from Immanuel Kant with some other recent utilitarian theories. I like bringing up the means-end thing in debates too, it's funny all the different relationships people can have where someone is used as a means to someone else's ends. I know some philosophers are in a real quandry about fertility treatments like egg harvesting, surrogate motherhood, and stem cell research. And there are even times when we use ourselves, or misuse ourselves, by our own psychology and delusions. I think Immanuel Kant even wrote about that in the context of mastur... "pleasuring" oneself? Can I say that on this board? Well, I guess if we can have crotch threads, we can mentioning "pleasuring"! Ha haa! Hi Remi! Isn't it amazing what we think of as portion sizes in restaurants here? I have some friends from India, and we talked once about growth hormones and the large sizes of produce and poultry in the US. Agribusiness and modified foods bring up so many questions about what's really good for both animals and people.
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 18:58:01 GMT -5
They also say that with most fish in the US, even the farm raised kinds, it's a good idea to limit the amount of fish you have to 2-3 servings a week because of the high levels of mercury. I have been reading about this. If it is not one thing, it is another... You can almost wear yourself out trying to keep up with everything you should avoid. Yes I am from Birmingham, Alabama and very familiar with James Rachels. I studied philosophy - unfortunately not from Dr. Rachels. Have you ever heard of Greg Pence - he is also a notable moral/ethical philisopher from the same school in Alabama. He specializes in medical ethics.
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Post by SugarMagnolia on Mar 2, 2005 19:18:56 GMT -5
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 19:26:51 GMT -5
That is Greg! Now if you live in Evanston, I can't imagine it being difficult to find good Sushi. I know it is not near an ocean, but surely the restaurants have good contacts on at least one coast.
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Post by Librarian on Mar 2, 2005 20:16:38 GMT -5
But following your own logic, PiD...
how can you wear cow hide, if you would not wear kitten fur?
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